DAVID LALLY: Welcome to “The Brian Buffini Show” where we explore the mindsets, motivation, and methodologies of success. My name is David Lally. I’m the producer of the show and I know we may be in challenging times, but that’s just why we’ve been working on shows to keep us upbeat and focused on the good stuff. Let’s listen in.
BRIAN BUFFINI: The top of the morning to you and welcome to “The Brian Buffini Show.” Today’s guest is Shannon McGahn. Shannon is the Senior Vice President of Government Affairs at the National Association of REALTORS®. This continues our series with the leadership of NAR. We’ve had Dr. Lawrence Yun, Chief Economist at NAR. We’ve had President Vince Malta.
We’ve also had Dr. Ben Carson, the US Secretary of Housing and Urban Development. However, I am most looking forward to today’s interview because with a name like Shannon McGahn, you can always have high expectation that the Irish are on the line. Shannon, a top of the morning to you. Welcome to the show.
SHANNON MCGAHN: Thank you, Brian. It’s great to be with you. You actually pronounce my name perfectly. Thank you for that.
BUFFINI: I’d be shot if I wasn’t able to pronounce that name. I played a lot of football against a lot of McGahns back in the day. They were always good characters. Bunch of scrappers and Shannon is my favorite town in Ireland, so there you go.
MCGAHN: Oh, that’s great to hear. My maiden name it’s Flaherty. Plenty of Irish names in there.
BUFFINI: Fighting Flahertys as they’re called.
MCGAHN: You got it.
BUFFINI: That’s great stuff. You have a big job. You’re responsible for the federal legislation and political affairs on behalf of NAR. Their previous staff director for House Financial Services Committee. Twenty years’ experience on Capitol Hill, I can’t imagine. You are from George Washington University. You live in Alexandria which I understand DC is starting to be a bit of a hotspot right now. You have two young kids I hear bouncing off the walls. I’m sure you’re trying to do everything you can to take care of them as well. You’re a busy woman with a big job and a busy family life. We really appreciate you being on the program today.
MCGAHN: Thank you for the opportunity and I hope that you and all of your listeners are staying safe and healthy.
BUFFINI: You bet. That’s the goal. That’s the goal. Shannon, we have thousands of members listening in, tens of thousands this morning, who are all members of the National Association of REALTORS®. Most people wouldn’t be that aware of exactly how NAR represents them in Washington. I’ve been a member for 33 years and I’ve learned more in the last 30 days, to be honest with you, than I have the last 33 years. Can you share a little bit about how NAR works on REALTORS® behalf on Capitol Hill? Then we can talk specifically as it relates to the CARES Act. Talk about non-pandemic. What is it you guys do right there in Capitol Hill is representing the real estate community?
MCGAHN: Oh, sure. It’s hard to think we were in the thick of the non-pandemic time especially for all the talk of a broken and partisan Washington. When this sudden crisis hit, Congress acted in an overwhelmingly quick and bipartisan problem-solving way. Our job is to work with them in that fashion. NAR jumped to action to ensure that our members, property owners, and the industry were all well represented in this response. In general, when we’re not speaking of crises like this, what makes realtors so effective on the Hill is that we’re not representing a special interest. We’re representing everyone’s interest.
This is REALTOR® members, property owners, consumers, the industry and the business as a whole. This is an industry that is incredibly important as everyone is knowing that we’re sheltering in place and spending more time at home. Our houses have become daycare facilities and homeschools and bars in some cases and Internet cafes. We’re spending a lot of time at home. It’s our intention to continue working with lawmakers to ensure that as we get out of the crisis and into recovery, that we can see that real estate plays a big picture there.
We also see that in our advocacy operation, what we do is we analyze the Venn diagram of that partisanship, so where we see the House versus Senate, Republican versus Democrat, where we can find that common ground and that overlap. That is the best area for our 1.4 million members to play. We analyze that. We find where there is that common ground and where we can fight for our members and ensure that they are included in these very important policies.
BUFFINI: That’s great stuff. It is. I think right now people have come to realize how important home actually is when in the middle of the storm everybody was sent home. I think now, all of a sudden, people have a greater appreciation for so many things. My wife and I are going to do a little broadcast this week because we have six kids and we homeschooled them all for the past 20-some years, 27 years to be precise.
Now people will understand why we’re a bit crazy all the time because this is what it actually looks like. In this regard, you guys have been out there banging the drums on behalf of the industry, on behalf of homeowners, for years and years and years, but now all of a sudden, like we’re talking today, it’s because of this pandemic. You guys have kicked into gear. I just feel like you’ve done some remarkable things on behalf of the Association.
I don’t think most people know. This stimulus package is a thousand pages, $2 trillion, which is just a staggering sum of monies. Let’s take it step by step. Could you share with us just some of the big things you were able to get accomplished, especially for our constituents, in this CARES Act?
MCGAHN: Absolutely. When we’re done with this call, I’m going to want your homeschooling tips because that has been one of the most challenging parts of this experience by far. I tip my hat to you on that one. I think it’s important to remember that the Federal government has delivered three legislative response measures so far. The first was a nearly $8.5 billion package focusing on the medical research.
The second was the Families First Coronavirus Response Act which addressed the immediate need for testing and medical services and included extension of the FMLA, the Family Medical Leave Act, paid sick leave, unemployment, insurance, the assistance to the state and that just went into effect last week on April 1, and that’s in effect through the end of the year.
Treasury and the Small Business Administration have been negotiating throughout these packages with Speaker Pelosi and you say you’re seeing these things really happen in a bipartisan and bicameral way. The CARES Act is the third and the largest. In fact, it’s the largest legislative action in history with over $2 trillion for the epidemic response.
When it comes to the CARES Act, we were looking at, there are three main components and how they impact our realtor members, the industry and consumers.
That includes cash flow, so the direct cash payments that we’re going to be sent to most adults $1,200 and $500 per kid under the age of 17, unemployment benefits that are now available for independent contractors and the self-employed-
BUFFINI: Which is huge.
MCGAHN: -including a realtor, and this is unprecedented. As scary as it is, you’ll see furloughs and layoffs and these things are happening throughout our economy, there is an important new provision called the pandemic unemployment assistance that has the Department of Labor collaborating with states and contracting with them to ensure that there is another level of protection and that does include independent contractors.
BUFFINI: Let me just stop you there for a second, because first of all, that’s huge. Obviously, this has never happened before and I just think it’s enormous. It was interesting in my recent discussions with Dr. Yun, he had an interesting take. He said, “Hey, for real estate agents don’t feel embarrassed or ashamed about this. The government’s forced this action in many cases just basically brought everything to a screeching halt.”
Just one point I want to bring out because we’ve received thousands of calls and emails about this. The states obviously, look, the highest unemployment in history in a week was 635,000. We had 10 million in the last two weeks for these filings. On one hand, the states are somewhat overwhelmed by this. On the other hand, a lot of our members are calling us and saying, “Hey, I tried to get unemployment, but I was unable to get it.”
It’s very important that some of the states are not quite set up yet but this is very important what you just mentioned that it’s the Pandemic Unemployment Assistance. It’s not regular unemployment assistance. It’s specifically notated that way. If anybody’s out there looking for unemployment help from our self-employed real estate community, you have to go to the Pandemic Unemployment Assistance. I just wanted to point that out because a lot of folks are going to their state and they’re going, “Man, I thought they did this for us and it’s not happening.” I just wanted to point that out.
MCGAHN: Thank you for doing that. I’ve already pointed out and I will continue to do so. If your listeners want to go to nar.realtor/coronavirus, we have an FAQ section. We have guides to how to access all these programs including the unemployment assistance. The one that’s a little bit tricky about the PUA program is that it is administered by the states. Each state is on a different timeline and a different website that they’re putting up and so some are running a little bit slower, but we’ve heard that the demand is very great.
I also want to emphasize the point you made earlier that there is nothing to be ashamed about, these programs are designed to get money into the economy while we stay home. They’re not designed necessarily as pure handouts, but a way to create liquidity within the system and to ensure that even though people are staying at home and they’re being socially distant, but there is still the ability to pay bills, and just as importantly, to keep people employed so I can get into those programs as well.
One of those expenses that was — Beyond other things that’s happened before is looking at things like that $1200 check, and $500 per child, and all these other programs. In the beginning, we originally got out right out the gate and said, “Make sure that any programs that you’re putting into place include the self-employed independent contractors and those who aren’t commissioned for a living.”
You would think that these programs would be a no brainer, that you want all wage earners out there, but at the beginning, they were talking about limiting it to just W2. We were there very early, very quickly to educate policymakers that you’re really only getting about half of the workforce here if you’re only looking at W2 so they included 1099. We even got it into bill provisions that specifically state “commission-based earners”. Those are all things that have been unprecedented.
BUFFINI: It’s so huge.
MCGAHN: We’re very grateful to make that impact with policymakers. These benefits are designed to get REALTORS® right into the game.
BUFFINI: Just jump into this for a second, tell us if you can, because there’s more I want to delve into the CARES Act here. Explain, how does it work? You guys have your relationships, you have your connections? Is it you and your team on the phone calling particular leaders or staffers? How do you get in front of these politicians to make the case when something like this comes up? How does it work?
MCGAHN: Oh, these are decades of relationships that we have and so it’s understanding, who are the decision-makers and who are the ones who are putting the paper in front of those decision-makers. I’ve been very pleasantly surprised with our interaction with the Hill just like our interaction right now with any of our members to see how much technology has taken that place of that face-to-face conversation and how responsive everyone has been on Capitol Hill.
They are still going into the office, many of them. About a month ago, signs that things weren’t going well is when they limited Capitol tours and they limited access of outside visitors into the Capitol because the House and Senate office buildings are public buildings that anybody can walk in. We knew windows were closed, that that meant that this was going to be definitely a problem for a while. I must say that I have had great responsiveness from all of our contacts on the Hill, they are looking for every way possible to help shake out any of these funds within the economy.
What we’re looking at for the next phase, we did letters that are all available on that website. We’ve done calls. We had our SPC, their federal political coordinators who have that one-on-one interaction with their members of Congress. In a number of cases, they made contacts, we made personal contact. It’s similar to what we do every single week, but with everyone paying attention to one piece of policy at the same time.
BUFFINI: Well, before we get into some more details, here’s what I want to say. Thank you. Thank you to you and thank you to your organization. It’s something, I’d be honest with you, I’ll confess, I’ve taken it for granted for 33 years, never really put much thought into it. As a self-employed independent contractor, I’m pursuing the American dream. I wasn’t really looking for any help from the government. I had my head down, just working hard. That’s how I went about my business.
It’s very good and comforting, I think, to know that there’s people like you in the organization that are going to bat for us and fighting hard for the people who make it happen for people to own a home every single day. We’re self-employed, and it’s just good to know we’re not all by ourselves. I just want to say thank you. I know you do this all the time, and I know your team does it all the time, but you know what it’s like right now.
We all have a new appreciation for nurses and for medical staff and for the porters at the hospitals and the people who do all the cleaning. I have an appreciation for truck drivers and for people in the grocery stores. I never had this level of appreciation for them before. I just want to thank you on behalf of all the folks that we reach. Thank you and your team for all the work you’ve done.
As we continue back into CARES Act, you talk about the cash coming in, we talk about the unemployment. Another big thing I think that’s much bigger than most people realize is real estate works off cash flow. The ability to be able to push back the tax date till July 15, I just think it’s huge, especially as we look at the real estate market, we look at where things are going with the pandemic, we look at when things might start opening up. I just think that is a huge deal. Can you talk to that a little bit?
MCGAHN: Absolutely. Before I get to that, you do not have to thank me but thank you for everything that you’re doing. This is our job, but more importantly, this is our passion. We are here to fight for you, we are here to fight for all of your listeners, and I am grateful for the opportunity to do that. I completely agree with you that when I saw that they pushed tax filing back to July 15, I thought, “Okay, well, that’s helpful,” and then, “No, not filing, payments to July 15. That’s unprecedented.” Because usually it’s, “Okay, send your estimated check and then we’ll just make you file the paperwork later.”
That is also a very huge sign and especially for commission-based earners who are holding on to that payment and then have access to that cash. The other one that we’ve done in the tax area that hasn’t gotten as much attention include the penalty-free retirement account withdraws. Realtors can withdraw up to $100,000 from their retirement account without that 10% early withdrawal penalty. Obviously, they have other re-contribution roles and things to make up for it on the backend, but it at least gives you access to cash.
BUFFINI: I believe they’ve also doubled the amount you can loan. If you take a loan from your retirement account, it used to be limited to $50,000. Now, they’ve raised it to $100,000. Again, there’s cash flow available there if you have a SEP or an IRA like that.
MCGAHN: Exactly. I spent a year working at the Treasury Department with Secretary Mnuchin, and he’s a former mortgage banker and he understands this business and he understands cash flow as well as anybody I’ve ever met. I think he’s been very helpful in this. The payroll tax delay allows employers and self-employed individuals to defer the Social Security tax payments between now and the end of the year. That’s another one that is helpful.
The employee retention tax credits, so businesses with fewer than a hundred employees that don’t take out the SBA loans, can claim a refundable credit of up to $5,000 for each employee retained during these circumstances. That’s to give a tax incentive in order to keep people on the payroll throughout this short-term crisis.
BUFFINI: The SBA loans are obviously becoming a big piece where there’s a lot of very large-sized real estate companies today with big staffs. The SBA loan is also with the PPP plan, $359 billion. I understand they’re trying to add another $200 billion to that. That’s a huge sense of relief there as well.
MCGAHN: Yes, we’re learning all kinds of new acronyms here. The paycheck protection program is the SBA 7(a) loan program that is a forgivable loan. It turns into a grant designed to cover the cost of small businesses to stay up and running and keep workers on the payroll. That includes rent, mortgage interest, utilities and a payroll. Though, one of the other signs that shows you that the Federal government is serious about getting money out the door.
When that loan application came out last week, my jaw dropped. It’s a page and a half, not counting the instructions made it as easy as possible. You can fill it out while you’re waiting in line at the bank. They want this and there were lines at the bank on Friday when the program opened up. I’ve heard varying reports on how many loans are processed in that one day, but it’s in the billions in one day alone and on April 10th this Friday is when the loans become available for independent contractors. You’re going to see a much greater demand there and that’s likely to be the topic of the next legislative action
BUFFINI: For sure. I want to make this a special note for a lot of folks that may not be aware of. There was a loans cap put in place by the Fed on top of a Wells Fargo and any company that has more than 50 employees like I do, and I bank at Wells Fargo, are unable to participate in the SBA loan. It’s been unfortunate how that’s all shaken out, but you can switch to another bank. Now, obviously you’re back in line, you’re in the back of the line. They’re taking care of their existing customers first.
Some of the bigger banks are saying you had to have a relationship prior to February 15th but smaller community banks and regional banks are accepting new customers. If you’re a company like mine, I have 240 employees, we couldn’t get any help through Wells Fargo, we’re having to switch to smaller more local and more regional banks. I was just on a conference call recently. There’s thousands of businesses in that spot. If you or your family members part of a business that has over 50 employees you bank at Wells, understand you can shift to another bank.
With this extra $200 billion apparently coming down the pike this week, they say, you should be able to get in line and be able to avail of those loans that become grants. I just wanted to add in that. Everything’s a fast-developing situation. You mentioned the nar.realtor/coronavirus, I’m watching that expand every time something happens. You guys are adding to that all the time. There’s just a lot going on. Anything else in the CARES Act before we talk about what’s coming next that you’d like to get out to the folks at this time?
MCGAHN: A couple other things. In the loans to and grants department, there’s the Economic Injury Disaster Loan Program, which is another grant program, even though it has a loan in the name, that provides economic relief for small businesses with a fully forgiven advance of up to $10,000 available within three days.
The definition of those three days can vary depending on how the application is processed, of course, but full proprietors and independent contractors with 500 employees or fewer are eligible to get that and that’s applied on the SBA website. Then, also, there are issues dealing with mortgage forbearance. Allowing borrowers with government backed mortgages to request up to 360-day payment forbearance which is helpful. Then we’re also working on how the mortgage service providers and others can get some help as this process moves forward.
There are a number of these issues here. Your story we’re hearing from others across the country about whether or not their lending institution is able to service them. Obviously, the rollout is going to be a bit lumpy. It’s a brand-new program and it’s a crisis. We have great relationships with our industry colleagues, with banks of all sizes and credit unions, so we’re in constant communication of where we can be helpful in ensuring that they have the support they need to get these loans out the door.
BUFFINI: You bet, well, maybe I’ll put in my request, and maybe you guys can help Wells Fargo get their cap raised or something before all the customers are hung out to dry there. A couple of things coming up. We talked about things we’ve been hoping for, for a long time in the real estate business. Electronic notarization. The more digital contract. Questions I’ve been asked about our 1031 exchanges, and are we going to be able to get delays in the deadlines? What are some of the industry-specific things like that that we’re hoping to get accomplished in the next go around here?
MCGAHN: Oh, there are plenty. First of all, let me walk through the process a little bit in case there is news breaking and your listeners may not be aware. Congress is currently scheduled to return on April 20. Both congressional leadership and President Trump have already stated their work on a phase four rescue package. Initially, as early as like late last week, there was discussion of doing a large infrastructure bill that could range from a $1 to $2 trillion bill.
Using something like the FAST Act, which is a highway transportation bill as the vehicle, pun intended, to move a larger piece of legislation that would help with near-zero percent interest loans to help us get more money, more cash out into the marketplace. After the rollout of CARES, that conversation quickly pivoted as we thought it may back to what we would call basically the CARES 3.1. How do we make sure that CARES is properly implemented and that it’s properly funded?
The $350 billion for small business allocation, we want to make sure we don’t run out of that. They’re looking, as you mentioned, at doing something maybe through unanimous consent, which would mean that Congress does not have to come back and procession in order to go for it, that would extend that authorization. It’s very difficult to do that procedurally because it just takes one person to show up and object.
There’s a delicate dance of how congressional leaders manage their members and in particular, for instance, when CARES was on the House floor, one member did show up to object but they were able to just continue to vote on a voice vote not having to make everybody come in and spend 24 hours voting because of social distancing. They are attempting that and having spent years working in congressional leadership and how difficult that part of the job is but it’s incredibly important to make sure that it gets done.
When we’re looking at what the larger recovery package, not the next smaller phase of just continuing CARES but what a fourth-round larger package looks like. Remote online notary has been one of our top asks for the last few weeks. It was not in the scope of what care is included because CARES is more about getting money out the door than making policy changes. We have 27 states right now that allow online notary and for the other 26, there are a lot of question marks that are out there.
We’ve been battling this on multiple fronts, including with the states to see if we have governors who are able to issue executive orders that would meet minimum standards for that remote notary and then additionally with the Federal government to see what could be helpful that the administration could do. FHFA which regulates Fannie and Freddie, they’re trying to be more lenient in that area as much as the law can allow
We’ve got a standalone bill that was dropped by a bipartisan group of House members. We also have a standalone bill in the Senate. It helps when you’re trying to get something into a larger package to show that it can be supported on its own as well. We’re picking up co-sponsors for that and moving it along. We’re working on this in every single front and communicating with members of Congress. On 1031 Exchange similar to other tax provisions including opportunity zones, we have asked Treasury to extend any of these deadlines during this period of crisis so that we have some more just certainty going through the process.
We sent a letter to the Treasury I think a week ago that is available on our website. We have had some positive communications coming from the White House and Treasury to our policy and regulatory team acknowledging that this is an issue. We don’t have any reason to believe that they would extend it, I think it’s just something that they’ve been very busy and they’re looking at it and saying what they can do. Observers who are closely following the 1031 issues are encouraged to see that we might see some relief and guidance in the next week or two. Those are some of those big issues. There are a number of other things that we’re looking at.
BUFFINI: What about essential work? The dynamic of that, it’s in some states, have you guys got a position on that, as far as real estate being considered essential?
MCGAHN: Yes, absolutely. We were successful in including it on the Department of Homeland Security’s critical infrastructure list of essential services. Real estate was not on the first list that came out. That was a much narrower list that was basically designed to follow the post-September 11 guidelines. “Here are specific industries that must stay open.” They expanded it, included real estate and more financial services areas in the second round.
It’s important to note that the definition of essential services from the Department of Homeland Security is a guideline that goes to the states and then the states are the ones who make those decisions. An essential service doesn’t necessarily mean you have to show up for work, it means that you’re protected to work if you need to. If you’re in the middle of closing a house, and you need to show up or if you’re doing a virtual showing, there are ways, but we definitely encourage all listeners to go by your state guidance and talk to your state association too, because every governor has different interpretation.
BUFFINI: It’s interesting. I’m in the middle of a couple of commercial transactions in my own portfolio and the other day I met with my notary, and we have a long relationship, and it looked like the strangest thing you’ve ever seen in your life. We were in a parking lot. She had a mask and gloves. I had a mask and gloves and we did it on the hood of a car and I’d walk in and sign and then she — It was like something out of a Seinfeld episode or something. It was just bizarre. You know what?
MCGAHN: You got it done.
BUFFINI: We got it done and the title company she’s working from home and the deal is going slower and challenging, but you know what? People are being resilient and getting it done and so forth. I have a personal question for you, Shannon, something I hear in your voice that sounds very powerful to me. You have to work with everybody. You have to work with Republicans. You have to work with Democrats. You work with the White House, you work with the Congress.
I know it’s your job, but you seem to have in your voice is asymptomatic of political bias. That is such a strange thing in our world today with the media and the environment and so forth. Here’s what I would love to know, inside the mind of Shannon McGahn, you’re looking at this from a different angle, you’re seeing these people cooperate and getting stuff done. They might make public statements differently for their political basis, but you’re working with them both, you work with them all. How do you stay so centered? How are you able to give good energy to both sides? How do you do that?
MCGAHN: That is a great question. It’s not one that I’m sure I have the answer to other than I started working on Capitol Hill when I was 19 years old and I am obsessed with the process. I think that if you follow the process, and you’re good to people, we work with people. We don’t work with policies, we don’t work with political parties, we don’t work with anything else. We work with people.
As long as you respect the people and the process that they have to go through to come up with their decisions and to implement them, then you’re going to have a better understanding of how those laws are enacted. It takes a lot out of these elected officials to come in every day, they’re not easy jobs.
BUFFINI: You’re right.
MCGAHN: They’re not the most well-paying jobs. They’re not the worst pay, but they’re not the most well-paying jobs, they are very difficult, but I think if you have a healthy sense of respect for what they have to go through to come to these decisions then it makes it a lot easier for me to represent 1.4 million members in front of the policymakers who are going to get things done.
BUFFINI: Well, I think he just said something very powerful and it might be, by the way, the most powerful thing, we’ve even covered it, because we’ve covered a lot of great stuff on behalf of our industry and I’m going to mention a couple of websites to go and get all the resources, but you just mentioned the word respect. I would imagine you have a different view of seeing this work than the rest of us do. It’s easy to throw politicians under the bus.
They say things and do things and they have to say things and have to do things sometimes, but it seems like respect. That’s the key, and right now, it seems like as much as we can all get up in arms left, right and center, it seems like they’re getting an awful lot of stuff done. They’re turning things over quick. They’re getting a lot of money to people and it’s never perfect. It’s never pretty. It’s never efficient.
It seems like at the time of need, a lot of folks are coming together from all different parties and dynamics to get stuff done to help people. I appreciate you being at the front lines for all of us in the real estate community along with your team getting this stuff done. Like I say, I think we’ll all grow maybe a little bit of appreciation and maybe even out of this a little bit more respect even for folks with differing views and different philosophies. Before we wrap up, here again, I want to, first of all, say nar.realtor/coronavirus. Check that out.
Also, we’ve simplified a lot of these things in really infographic form. We’re pumping this stuff out. My team, buffiniandcompany.com/bcbonus. Those are the two websites you can go to download the free resources. We’ve tried to make it really as easy to understand as possible. You guys keep fighting the good fight. You’re doing a great job for us. I want to thank you, Bob Goldberg, all the team there at NAR. You guys are doing a heck of a job.
We’re very proud of our relationship with you guys and we thank you for taking your time in the midst of we know the very busy time. You got to go right back on the Hill and go get the next stimulus figured out, but we really appreciate you, Shannon and your team and on behalf of the hundreds of thousands of realtors that we reach every year, we just want to say thank you to our Association and to the leadership and to you specifically for all you’re doing to help us. Thanks for being on the show today. It really helped a lot.
MCGAHN: Thank you, Brian. I really appreciate the opportunity to talk to you and to all of your listeners and please stay safe and healthy out there and let us know how we can continue to help.
BUFFINI: You bet. I know that was a laugh, a lot of information there. Shannon is bringing the information hot and heavy to us. Again, go to check those two websites out. Get all the information you need but as I leave you here today, I hope these words ring home true for you than ever before. May the roads rise up to meet you, and may the wind always be at your back. May the rain fall soft upon your fields and the sunshine warm upon your face. When this bloody pandemic is over, I hope we all know that God has us in the hollow of his hand. We’ll talk to you next time. Bye-bye.